Understanding neurodiversity in the workplace

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Ruhel Ahmed: Hello and welcome to the Acas Podcast. I'm Ruhel Ahmed, an Acas senior policy adviser in the Inclusive Workplaces Policy team. 

In this episode, I'll be discussing neurodiversity in the workplace and how organisations can work to become more neuroinclusive. Joining me for the discussion today, I've got Professor Almuth McDowell and Jodie Hill. 

Jodie, if we can start with you please, please introduce yourself.

Jodie Hill: Perfect. No. Thank you so much for having me. So my name is Jodie Hill. I am the founder and managing director of Thrive Law. We specialise in employment law with a real focus on diversity and inclusion, particularly neurodiversity, and I also wear the hat of also being neurodivergent myself.

Ruhel: Thank you Jodie and Almuth, can I come to you please?

Almuth McDowell: I'm Almuth. I'm Professor of Organisational Psychology at Birkbeck University of London. I research mainly on diversity, neurodiversity, inclusion, and also occupational health. And for all my sins, I also still have my practicing certificate as an occupational psychologist.

Ruhel: Thank you for that. So we have 2 very knowledgeable experts to have a great discussion. 

So Almuth, if I can come to you first, because you've done some research recently for Acas on the topic of neurodiversity at work. I just wanted to get an understanding and an overview of what that research looks like and some of the recommendations that might have come out of that.

Almuth: So I will give you a whistle stop tour. We did what we call in research a triangulated approach, where we draw different sources of evidence together. So we looked at, what does current research and practice evidence tell us? What can we learn from that? We engaged with experts on neuroinclusion qualitatively, but also through a survey. And then we did 4 in-depth case studies of organisations that are relatively advanced in neuroinclusion, so that we can share best practice.

And what is coming out of the research – in a nutshell – is that line managers are absolutely key and absolutely pivotal. Because when conversations are had about how to do your best work, how to reasonably adjust, they're usually the first port of call. So it's really important that they're trained. 

They don't have to know everything, but they need to know enough to triage and refer – potentially spot any problems, but also have honest conversation about what needs to be done. 

Good neuroinclusion needs to be proactive and not reactive. So best guesstimates are that 15% to 20% of the working population are neurodivergent. If you think about your average workforce, that's 1 in 5. Organisations need to anticipate that. So the best thing to do is build neuroinclusion into everything that you're doing. And people are often scared. "Oh, reasonable adjustments. Everything is so costly". Many things that are good practice are good for absolutely everybody, such as keeping communication very simple, very unambiguous, having really, really clear expectations set out, knowing whom to turn to when you have a question, when to have conversations about flexible working, for instance, making sure that you have reviewed all of your people processes through a neuroinclusive lens. So right from recruitment advertising opportunities through to selection, then performance management, supporting wellbeing. 

Rather than making neuroinclusion a separate thing, it's much, much cleverer to weave it into everything that you're doing. Because that reduces the burden on line managers and makes sure that it never gets forgotten or lost or not thought about. Holding leaders accountable for facilitating good inclusion, they should role model, they should signpost. This is a really, really important thing for them, and never forget that really small things can have a big positive impact. And that might be really simple things such as reviewing all of your materials, ensuring that the reading level is set appropriately, that colours and fonts are dyslexia friendly, for example. And also rolling out good training, because neuroinclusion does require thought, does require expertise. Because neuroinclusion should be about fostering talent, not about a remedial approach. And organisations really need to upskill themselves, inform themselves, that training is good and also compliant with current employment law, which I'm sure is something that Jodie will speak to.

Ruhel: Thank you for that Almuth that sounds like a lot to unpack in there, and it sounds like a really sort of thorough piece of research. Just right at the start of that, you mentioned neuroinclusion, and Jodie, I know that you are a passionate neuroinclusion campaigner, just very quickly, what does it mean to be neuro-inclusive? What does the actual term mean?

Jodie: So for me, neuroinclusion is really as Almuth was saying, and it's about looking at how can we make the whole employee lifecycle inclusive for those people who are neurodivergent? So, think about even applying for the job and the job description. Talking about the skills that are desired or essential, really thinking about the language that we use, the processes that we adopt, and making a psychologically safe place for those people who are neurodivergent to ask for help and to say, "I can't do it in this way, but I can do it this way". 

And, you know, a lot of workplaces, probably in my experience, certainly as a lawyer, is they kind of just come in at the reasonable adjustments space, and it's really quite reactive. And as Almuth said, it's really important that employers think about neuroinclusion as part of their wider business strategy. 

And something that we've been doing at Thrive – which is helping me to see that businesses do want to do this, and there is a real appetite for it – is when we're reviewing things like policies, processes and helping with HR, we're doing that through obviously a legal compliance lens, but we also apply the neurodiversity lens so they automatically get that insight.

And I think what would be really nice to see is if other practitioners started to do that and actually it not being an optional extra, if it's a "nice to have", it's actually just who we are , and how our business is set up, and how we set everything up, rather than an afterthought. And I think certainly for me as a neurodivergent person, it's about feeling heard and valued in the workplace as an individual.

When we talk to our managers, again, going back to what Almuth said about managers being trained, do they understand what I'm trying to explain to them? Do they know how they can support and what their limitations are and what support is already approved? Like the little things like flexible working and communication styles and how we do meetings, all of those things help everybody. So when we think about neuroinclusion, it's not just a tick box. It's not a "we celebrate neurodiversity week" or "we do reasonable adjustments". It's about making the entire organisation inclusive for all, but particularly for those who are neurodivergent. That's the long answer.

Ruhel: It's a very good answer. And touched on that point there, where being neuroinclusive, it doesn't necessarily just benefit neurodivergent people. It's something that benefits everyone within the organisation as well. And I think that's a really important message to get out there as well. 

So you both touched on a few things there. So there was a bit around line management that Almuth mentioned at the start, and then Jodie, you touched on line managers as well. And the importance of line managers has often been that first port of call or that first point of contact. What is it that line managers can do to help become more neuroinclusive. And what does good look like for a successful line manager that can help their neurodivergent employees?
 
Almuth: Really, really important for a line manager is that skill to have really open and honest conversations with people and really simple questions. You know, the first time you meet a new team member, okay, so when you're doing your best work, it's like what? And finding out actually what the best working conditions are for somebody. Not assuming that you know what is good for somebody, but actually finding out from the person. That is something that comes out of all of our research that we do in our research centre, that any adjustments, if they have to be made, work so much better when they are tailored, rather than, "Oh, that worked for so and so". 

So it's about asking the person, facilitating those conversations, developing really good listening skills. But also managers need to know enough to know actually, this is something that I can support and I can do locally. And there might be some cases that are just a little bit more complex that require specialist input. For instance, a workplace needs assessment that looks both at individual requirements but also what does the business need to deliver. And there are circumstances when you need outside and expert help, and there is nothing wrong with that, but line managers need to know enough to know that actually this now requires a referral. And in order for them to know where the border is, they need to be trained enough to spot that. So that's really important. 

Then, in terms of the support that the line managers need is they need to have scope within their workload to manage neuroinclusion. Because more often than not, when I look at line managers job roles, it's very much focused on the operational but guess what, good people management takes time, and that needs to be acknowledged in the workload. It should also be acknowledged in how they are being supported, but also how they are being performance managed. So it becomes really explicit that this part of their portfolio is a really, really important thing. And the other thing that came out of our research is line managers are far more reluctant to support and to put into place adjustments, if they come out of their own budget. It's far better to have a centralised pot of cash, a centralised process, right? That reduces burden on the line managers, but also reduces that fear, you know, if I sign off that budget does it then look as if my team isn't functioning optimally? No, no, the adjustment is there to help people function optimally.

Ruhel: Thank you, Almuth, and Jodie, if I can come to you, because you're the founder of a law firm, and I believe you're a smaller sized business, how did those recommendations come across to smaller to medium-sized businesses, and can they sort of incorporate those things as well?

Jodie: They absolutely can. And I think there's a huge misconception that neurodiversity, neuroinclusion and anything to do with diversities are only for big companies, because we don't have the time, we don't have the budget. We are living proof that it's possible. And I work with so many small businesses who really do care about this as part of their business agenda. And it's really about putting it on the agenda at the start and then building as you grow, rather than trying to add things in quite a tokenistic way, like, "Oh, we've got to tick a box". 

And so for me, it's actually about the little things to start with. So start small, think about your processes, your policies. Are they accessible? Do you need to rethink how you do meetings? Does everybody have to turn up and just talk all at once and it's really distracting for people? Or, are you requiring everyone to just listen, which is auditory processing, there's no visual. So really, just think about how we do the meetings. And actually one of the things that we do is – obviously being neurodivergent myself – I wanted to explain to my team, why I struggle with certain things and where my strengths are, so that where they have strengths and I have struggles, we can work together. And actually I can help them with the stuff that they're not so good at and they don't have to do that bit. And like the admin side that I really struggle with, they help me with. So actually, by having that higher sense of awareness of how we work best and where we struggle, and getting everybody to do that, not just the neurodivergent people, we all work better together. And we almost removed this piece around, I know I'm an employment lawyer, and disability is part of it, but we remove the labels around disability, and actually we make it normal for everybody to work how they work best. 

And by doing that, small organisations can achieve neuroinclusion through very, very little effort and very little cost. And then when you think about adjustments again, that word adjustments can seem quite negative. And I know Almuth says, I can't remember the word that you said. How do you phrase it instead in a positive way? There was a way that you described it in your research.

Almuth: It's about performance optimisation and helping people work at their best.

Jodie: Yeah, exactly. So rather than thinking of this as, oh, this person's disabled, and we have to put this in place, and this is such a burden. Yes, of course, there's a legal requirement to do that. But why don't we just work out how everybody works best, and then put all the support in for all the people that need it. And by doing so, we'll make it so much easier for those neurodivergent individuals to ask for support and to feel as though they're not a burden. Because I think that's also part of it. When you're in a smaller organisation and someone needs help and everybody else doesn't. Then it kind of highlights that they're a problem when they're not a problem. The reality is, the workplace is set up by neurotypical people without neuroinclusion in mind, and so they need more adjustments. So if small businesses' set up in a more neuroinclusive way, they probably have to make fewer adjustments, which is a win-win for everybody. But I do think cost is obviously part of the challenge. But there are ways that you can access support, through the Department of Work and Pensions (DWP) for access to work. If there are additional costs that a small and medium-sized enterprise (SME) can't afford, you can get reasonable adjustments supported through government grants. So you don't, that cost shouldn't be a barrier. There are ways around it, and there are small wins and quick wins that you can do immediately. So for me, I won't have it when people say, if you're a small business, it's not possible because it so is possible. It's just how important it is to you and your organisation.

Ruhel: Thank you for that. I think it's good that we highlight that with a lot of adjustments. More often than not, they are sort of very straightforward. They are very simple, and there is often sort of little to no cost associated with that. And where there is a cost, it's a case of the cost of helping your employees, which is essentially what every employer should be aiming to do anyway. One of the areas that I wanted to sort of focus on, or get your views on is around line management and being able to manage conflict, or even topics around conduct. So how do line managers address misconduct and conflict, performance and things like that when it comes to neurodiversity?

Almuth: I think the answer to that is really the same principles of good management apply, right? So when you spot conflict in your team, don't shy away from it. You need to name it. You need to address it. You need to be able to have conversations. And when you've got people with very different neurotypes working in a team, you might have one person who wants to sit there with noise cancelling headphones on really quietly, get on with their work. On the other side of the room, you might have people "Come on, give me a bit more input. This is all going a bit slow." And then, yeah, there might be friction, misunderstanding between people. 

A good thing to do is to pre-emptively train managers for these eventualities, and not just training, as in, have them sit in lectures and feed them information, actually make them practice good conversations. So you actually pre-empt that at some point in time, it's likely that all of us have to have these conversations with neurodivergent people, or not. So you upskill managers. Think it's also really important, particularly when you're recruiting line managers to frontload some of their training. So do it really early on in induction. So almost you know from day one, from week one, they are well equipped. And there might be scenarios again, where outside help is needed. Co-coaching, for instance, works really well when you bring 2 employees together, where there has been a misunderstanding, some friction. And then with a professionally trained coach, and if it's in a neurodiversity context, also with a coach who is actually professionally trained in a neurodiversity context, and they know how to work well with really different neurotypes in the room, that's really important.

Jodie: I actually wanted to add to that. I think that's a really good point about the co-coaching, because sometimes, as a lawyer, people will come to me and say, we've got to this point, we don't know what to do. It's almost that they've got themselves in a bit of a pickle because they haven't had the skill set to deal with it before. They haven't really known what to do. In this situation we've signposted people to coaches who are neurodivergent. And then a really good example of this is where a manager doesn't know that someone is neurodivergent, but HR does. HR haven't got permission to disclose that information, and the person is about to be performance managed. The person doesn't trust their manager, so they don't want to open up about it. The manager has not been trained. So what do you do?

These situations are really helpful when you have a co-coach, and obviously, if you've already done training, it helps to prevent to get in these situations. But some situations are unavoidable, and we need to have different ways of resolving them, rather than going through a formal process. But we really need to think about why someone might have done something in that way, rather than assuming why they've done it. Because often, we assume that an ADHD-er is lazy and that they're always late because they can't be bothered. And the reality is, it might be that they're struggling with time blindness. And so, can we be more flexible, rather than discipline them? Because disciplining them is not going to fix the problem. So I do think there is a bit of this where we have to just take a little step back as managers, and just think about, what is the end goal? What am I trying to achieve here? And is the process that I'm about to go down actually going to help me with that? And do I need additional support? 

And going back to Almuth’s point on the listening and they're asking the right questions, is so so important, and being able to balance misconduct, poor performance, mental health, neurodivergence, physical disabilities. We'd have to see this holistically. There isn't a silver bullet or one answer, one way of doing something works for everybody, because as we know, we are all wired up differently. And the reality is, it's much more complicated than that. 

So, we need to get more information before we make decisions, and we need to get those managers feeling, as I call it, 'neuro-confident', so that they feel that they're equipped to have those conversations and they know what they can and can't give as immediate adjustments and suggestions as well. Because sometimes it stalls the process, if you have to go to occupational health or you have to go somewhere else, and actually, the managers need to know, what can I do straight away? What are my boundaries? And at what point should I go to HR or the legal team? Because in the moment that support is so important, and if the person has to wait 3 weeks until you come back to them. That also is a really huge challenge for a lot of neurodivergent people who feel already it's so hard to ask for help. 

So really think about the reasonable adjustments process and how you use needs assessors as well. Because I do think a lot of managers assume that the individual knows what they need, and they don't. I didn't know what I needed, and I'm an expert in reasonable adjustments, and that's because when we're in it, we don't know what we don't know. And it took for me to have a needs assessment to understand that I write emails very differently. I approach situations very differently. I thought everybody did that, and until I explained to the needs assessor, and they explained to me different ways of doing things, I just genuinely thought that everybody did stuff like that. So I do think it's important to go beyond just your own knowledge as well, and don't be afraid to ask for help as a manager, I think that's really key.

Ruhel: I think that message around not being afraid to ask for help when you need to is a really important one as well. And I know the topic of line managers and dealing with conflict, it is something that we've heard and we've seen sort of quite a bit, as when we did stakeholder engagement and talking to people ourselves as well. Now, I did want to come on to the topic of reasonable adjustments. Just before I did that, I just wanted to pick up on something that you've both mentioned just throughout our discussion. 

You mentioned a bit around recruitment and the onboarding stage, and then Jodie, you just mentioned around, sort of that early sort of support as well. And I think we went back around, sort of frontloading and supporting managers at that earlier stage. So Jodie, if I could come to you and just get a bit more information about why is that recruitment and that onboarding stage, why is that so important? Is that a more crucial stage to neurodivergent employees, or people that look to be joining a workplace?

Jodie: I think there's 2 things. The first is, if it's not neuroinclusive as a process, then they're not likely to apply for the job, and you're potentially losing out on some amazing talent, just because your process for applying for the role. So I think that the starting point is thinking who are we excluding from the talent pool when we're not thinking about this earlier? Obviously, then when people join the organisation, you don't want to wait 7 months a year to find out what support they need. So, if we engage with people right at the beginning of their employment and understand how do they work? How will they do this role? Understanding what their needs might be. And look, they might not know at the beginning, but have that conversation so they know the dialog is open, the door is open, they might be able to make suggestions, and so might you, but you need to be thinking about it beforehand. Otherwise it might just seem that employee's are not performing when actually they just haven't been given the right environment to perform in or the right tools to perform with.

Ruhel: Thank you Jodie and Almuth I know that the research also touched on the recruitment and onboarding phase as well and some of the things that employers and line managers can do. Did you want to go into that a bit more as well?

Almuth: Sure. Obviously, recruitment onboarding always has to be also tailored to a job and to a job context. But for instance, if you are recruiting, let's say for customer facing roles in retail and you know your selection process is an application form followed by an interview, make sure that the application form is really easy to navigate, the layout is as accessible as possible. Really, really important for such a role it would also be completely legitimate to give people the interview questions in advance. I always get that from organisations, "Oh, but that's then unfair to others". No, it's not unfair. It just levels the playing field. But let's say my husband works in social media. So, if you're an account manager in social media, you will be faced with lots and lots of very, quite challenging situations when you're managing a client. You often have to troubleshoot. There are lots of situations where you don't know before a meeting what the meeting will bring to you. For such a role, it would not necessarily be a good idea or justified to give interview questions in advance, because you would want to assess in the interview how people can actually respond to such challenges. So yes, adjustments are good, but they also have to be proportionate to the job role.

Ruhel: Thank you for that Almuth. Jodie, I just want to come to you, and just ask you, what is a reasonable adjustment? So what is reasonable and what is an adjustment

Jodie: That's a very big question. 

So to give context, a reasonable adjustment is something that an employer can do to alleviate any disadvantage faced by the neurodivergent person who's likely to satisfy the definition of disability. So what we're looking at here is, how do we support disabled people at work? However, what I would always say is, don't focus so much on the definition of disability or diagnosis. Focus on how can we address someone's role to perform best. It's like an enhancement to their role, rather than seeing it as this quite linear process of disability – adjustment – done.

So, an example might be… Almuth gave a great one for the interviews, where you give questions in advance. An adjustment, a physical adjustment, could be some technology or physical, like, I have a standing desk, so when I've got excess energy, I can stand up, sit down. And, you know, people assume that that would just be for someone with a bad back, for example. But actually, that can really help someone with ADHD. Fidget toys, normalising using those in the workplace to help focus, or for someone who's autistic, perhaps that would help them to cope with sensory overload and be quite soothing for them. So different adjustments might mean different things for different people, but they might be used in the same way. 

So it's really about understanding the individual needs for that person in that role in that organisation. And what I found really helpful, especially in big organisations, is where reasonable adjustments passports are created. I do think it's important that people understand reasonable adjustments are very specific to an individual and their role in their organisations, but it has to be proportionate. So what's reasonable in Thrive Law in a 20 person company might not be the same as a 50,000 company, because they have way more resources. 

So you have to balance lots of different things, and when we look at what is reasonable a tribunal, whenever it gets to that point, we'll always look at the size and administrative resources available to the organisation, but the specific need for the individual, and how that adjustment would alleviate any disadvantage. It doesn't have to remove the disadvantage, because that's almost impossible in most situations. It just has to try and help them level the playing field so that they can have as much of an equal chance at getting that next job or performing that task as anyone else would.
 
Ruhel: Thank you. I think that was a really helpful explanation. And Almuth, I know that in the research that we've done recently, you also touch on reasonable adjustments as well, and tend to have a focus of more around function rather than diagnosis. Could you explain that a bit more please?

Almuth: Yeah. First of all, in the eye of the law, you don't need a diagnosis right?

Jodie: Correct.

Almuth: Thank you, Jodie, for the definition of disability, it's the length of time for the impairment in functioning that makes a difference. There are many organisations who think they need a diagnosis, but actually they don't. And what current research for neuroscience shows us that all of the different neurotypes – they share some similarities. 

So on average, neurodivergent workers will struggle more with self-organisation, with working memory, with prospective memory, knowing what you need to do next, they will struggle more, on average, with sensory overwhelm. So reacting strongly to stimuli such as light and sound – a busy office can be really overwhelming – but people also don't understand they might also struggle with hyposensitivity, so not noticing things. That is a particular thing, for instance, for ADHD-ers, when they're in hyperfocus and they engage in something that they love doing, they will forget to eat and to drink and to take a break and work very, very long hours at a stretch. And actually, well, we know from recovery research, we're all human. We can't do that. We actually need down times. You know, our system is not wired to be peaking at peak arousal levels the whole time. 

So it's around the cognitive difference in terms of thinking, organising, sensory overwhelm. But you also often get very strong emotional reactions, heightened justice sensitivity, "Yeah, but that is not fair, that is not fair". And they're not wanting to let go of that. And actually that is something that often contributes to friction between workers, but actually then educating people, that is a thing for neurodivergent workers. And those heightened reactions can be really strong. They can be really, really physical. The good thing is, they will go again. They will calm down again. But also you need to give people the tools to diffuse these situations. 

So this is where current neuroscience is going, all the lovely research that Team Calm and Duncan Essel do at Cambridge, for instance. It's data driven, where they look at lots and lots of data and then they correlate it with people and with a diagnosis. What they invariably find is you get clusters of people. So let's say a cluster of people who struggle with memory, a cluster of people who struggle more with self regulation. Which clusters people are in never, ever correlates with their actual medical diagnosis. 

Actually, when you look at the diagnostic criteria in the manuals, and you look at the diagnostic criteria for ADHD or for anxiety or for depression, there is so much overlap. The labels that we use are actually quite arbitrary, so it's much better to focus on functions and supporting people's strengths as well as supporting the challenges rather than getting so hung up on the diagnosis.

Ruhel: Thank you for that, Almuth. I did also want to come back on to the point around the different types of neurodivergence and the different needs people have as well. I think it's important to point out as well that while some people may have the same type of neurodivergence, it doesn't necessarily mean that they will have the same needs or the same type of adjustments will work. So I think that's a really important message to get out there as well. And what we've tried to demonstrate as well with our campaign, and I think Jodie, you touched on reasonable adjustment passports as well. That was a really, really helpful suggestion, because Acas actually did some disability discrimination research. And I think one of the reasons conflict came about was when managers change, or when circumstances change for an employee, and it's a case of just having to try and get that adjustment again, or trying to explain their reasonable adjustment to a new manager or a new employer. Those kinds of tools can be really, really helpful. 

Is there any topic or anything that you both think it might be worth highlighting, or anything that you think that I missed? Jodie, if I come to you first at all.

Jodie: For me, it's about getting the message across that neuroinclusion isn't a "nice to have". And there are so many easy, quick wins that we can do, and if you're not sure what to do, there's loads of great support in the research that obviously Almuth will be publishing. And also Acas’s guidance is so easy to follow, understanding what is masking, what different conditions might show up in the workplace and how they might show up. There's so much free resource available online that there's no reason really for people to say, well, I don't know about this. We need to really put it up the business agenda and make it a priority, because actually having that neurodiverse workforce is going to benefit your business in the long run, for sure.

Ruhel: Thank you for that. And Almuth, is there anything that you want to come in on at all?

Almuth: Put people at the heart of your corporate strategy. Because at the end of the day, we are all kind of working with the same software infrastructure and this and that and the other. Ultimately, what really, you know, helps a business thrive are its people, and 1 in 5 of these people is going to be neurodivergent, and you need to consider it from the outset. 

So it needs to be built into corporate strategy. You need leaders who are leading neuroinclusion in a really humble way, and actually, who walk the shop floor. And actually, you know whether it's a real shop floor or whether it's a law firm shop floor doesn't matter. Actually keep their finger on the pulse and really know what it is like for people, and then learn from experiences. Psychological safety we haven't yet talked about, and that's a climate where it's okay to be different, and that's really what all of us should be aiming for.

Jodie: Definitely. And I think on that point around psychological safety, there's also the reality that most people who are neurodivergent have other conditions or other things in their life, or they might have a different form of diversity, which also brings up the whole point about intersectionality, and the impact that that has on people is very, very different. So I always say "When you've met one ADHD-er, you've met one ADHD-er". And it's really important to understand that person as a person, not for the label that they have or the diversity that they bring to the team. But understanding what their needs are and also what their strengths are, so that we can play to those.

Ruhel: Thank you for that both and you touched on the aspect of psychological safety. What is psychological safety?

Jodie: In a nutshell, I would say psychological safety as well. Do your staff show up as their true self, or do they ask for help when they need it? Do they feel like they belong? And if you don't know the answer to that, then you need to start surveying and understanding how people actually feel in the workplace. 

Ruhel: Thank you for that. 

From the conversation that we've had today, I think the things that you've mentioned about around supporting line managers and allowing them to be able to have the conversations and have open and honest conversations with their people, and providing reasonable adjustments when they can, when you can as well, and being able to navigate those conversations around conflict and things like that. I think those are all really, really good, good steps and good pieces of advice around how to help neurodivergent people feel more psychologically safe in the workplace. So thank you for that. And I think those are sort of some really important messages to end on. 

Thank you both for the sort of conversation that you've given us today. And Jodie, you touched on the Acas guidance that we've got. We have recently published some new neurodiversity guidance, which covers many of the areas that we've discussed today, and as I touched on earlier as well, and as we've touched on throughout this conversation, we've got some new neurodiversity research that's coming out,that was led by Almuth as well. So I think those links will be in the podcast or will be on the website as well. So feel free to access those and have a look at that. And thank you both for joining us today.

Jodie: Thank you so much. Thank you. 

Almuth: Thank you for hosting.

Ruhel: Thank you for listening to the Acas Podcast. If you would like more information about neurodiversity in the workplace, please see the episode notes for links to the latest Acas guidance.

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